Ok so a little bit of an update on the overhang curling issues I've

Ok so a little bit of an update on the overhang curling issues I’ve been having.

This is the part that I’m actually trying to print (not that green thing that I posted earlier). As you can see it’s a little complicated. The second image shows you about where the overhangs started curling. I’m starting to think that the issue here isn’t my printer but my so my lack of experience with printing. I’ve tried printing this about a dozen times and I think I’m starting to get it dialed in more. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m just tweaking settings a little bit. I think that part of my issue with the curling is over extrusion and overhang angle along with increasing the extra prime amount. As I try printing this over and over again I’m making slight changes to the settings. Also, I’m printing it at a goofy angle to avoid lots of support material. The center post actually has pockets in it that’ll get filled with plastic if I rotate it anymore. So like I said before, I’m thinking this whole thing is just inexperience with something like this. Since I’ve started having this issue, this is actually the only think I’ve tried to print so if it fails again, I may try printing something else. currently I’m about at the spot where it starts to curl so we’ll see what happens. Either way, I’m getting more experience with how small changes can have a big impact when you’re dealing with small details like this.

That’s a pretty difficult shape to print. Long thin overhangs like that are basically guaranteed to warp because the upper and lower sides of the shape have different amounts of cold plastic under the hot plastic. And it’s a thin section so the curling shrinkage has little stiffness to resist it.

That being said, printing it totally horizontally will use more support plastic but should have fewer issues.

I would split it down the central axis and print it in two pieces.

So far I’ve got it printing pretty well. Sometimes the edges still come up a little but as it prints over the edge again it seems to be pushing it back down. Hopefully it’ll finish this time.

@Mark_Kennedy That’s a possibility and one that would probably be the easiest to do but now that I’m getting it more dialed in, it’s more of a challenge to get it printed as a solid part in this orientation. I’m currently at 43% and it’s looking pretty good so I think I’m going to just let it go and hope for the best. If it does fail though, I’ll probably try something else. But your suggestion would probably be the easiest as I could then avoid any overhangs at all and just glue the two halves together.

I got it to print! It’s not perfect but it’s here!

Excellent! I’m glad!

@Justin_Nesselrotte it was a pain in the butt. I guess my printer wasn’t as dialed in as I thought it was. I’ve only had it for like 2 months and it was down for like 2 weeks because I was replacing a stock part to make it better. Slowly but surely I’m getting this thing dialed in and upgraded just right.

Yep. I know that feeling aaaalllllll too well

@Justin_Nesselrotte it’s all part of the fun though. 3D printing isn’t something for just your average Joe. You gotta have some knowledge and the drive to really get things figured out. It’s definitely much more mainstream than it was a few years ago but I only know 2 people with 3D printers and they are both engineers I work with.

My goal is to try to make 3d printers as streamlined as possible and work with as low a failure rate as possible.

The following is a lengthy brainstorm about possible approaches to eliminating the problem of warping. Beware: long read.
Brook

I think you were chasing two different problems.

1. How to fight the warpage that results on large flat layers. The overhang test print presents a strong warping force over a large area from the top area shrinking as it cools. That force can be fought against by cooler layers below that hold it flat due to the stiffness below. Rules that apply here are related to cooling each layer to an optimal temp. All of these help: lower print temperatures, more air volume in fan cooling, optimizing the concentration of the air from the fan(s), thinner layers, slower speeds, wait time between layers.

2. How to fight warping that results on smaller flat areas. The spherical finned print suffers from a stack up of incremental warpage across many smaller layers. Same rules of cooling apply with one significant difference shorter layer print times means higher temps remaining in the layers below. You get multiple layers all retaining heat and cooling at different speeds but working together to warp. There is almost no help from cooler, stiffer layers below. All of the same tips apply. But it’s a purer test since there is no oppositional force of large stiff layers underneath. On this print, the total warping forces are laid bare. The relationship between tweaks in slicing speak clearly. You can’t cheat the results by utilizing the benefit of the counteracting force of stiff layers below.

Put plainly, the plastic has to cool and presents a predictable force. You can always work against that force by cooling each layer to a known minimum value.

I wish slicers would take cooling time into account automatically by mathematically calculating when any just-finished layer will reach a temperature that is cool enough to be stiff enough to proceed. Then all models would perform consistently and you wouldn’t have to tweak slicing settings. Print times would increase though.

An infrared camera that measures the top layer temp and automatically pauses the print until it is cool enough to proceed would be a simpler method since no mathematical model need be present.

Both methods need to know the right temp, which is different across the array of materials with which we print. The programming involved in both approaches is non-trivial of course. Also keep in mind that ambient temperature must be considered.

Current slicers ignore the forces of cooling.

Professional, enclosed machines provide a consistent ambient temperature that equalizes the differences between layer temperatures. A solution that doesn’t require an enclosed chamber seems more robust. Imagine if cheaper machines eliminated warping as well as the more expensive, enclosed chamber machines! Another differentiating factor between expensive and cheap machines would fall. It seems like low hanging fruit and it puzzles me why the reprap movement hasn’t done this. Probably because the cheapest solution seems to always win out even if it requires more knowledge and the added trouble of intuitively knowing how to counteract the built-in forces of warping inherent in certain models and certain orientations of certain models.

One last thought. I suppose that the cooling speed of a print coming out of an enclosed chamber is another factor in the equation. If you have even used an oven to anneal a part for better layer adhesion and strength, you have seen how badly parts can warp if cooled too quickly out of the oven.

There are so many variables in 3d printing. Manufacturers all focus on a different subset of problems. A few problems have barely been tackled yet since other common problems need addressing first. Some not-so-sexy problems remain, but will require costly programming, higher machine cost and a very scientific approach. Few manufacturers have the room in their budget to accommodate, but the payoff would be great.

or you can get airbrush nozzle it would be perfect for this kind of print.

@Brook_Drumm ​ can you shoot me a message? I’m interested in what the math would like like for that. I want printers to become more reliable so I’m very curious when people make suggestions like this.

@Brook_Drumm ​ off the top of my head I think the infrared camera solution would be far more robust than a mathematical solution in the long term as it couldn’t be controlled by gcode, environmental fluctuations alone would cause minor heat control fluctuations, then there’s filament purety, exact to the microsecond heat control of the head and a whole bundle of other things that would mean it would be a printer control constantly altering the pause timer per layer.

Camera though, that seems to me to be a pretty robust concept, it would just trigger a pause at the end of a layer and won’t issue a continue till the average temperature is on the preset range, seems to me it would go into the printer as a filament type setting…

Hmn, intriguing.

@Step_Cia I’ve thought about using an airbrush nozzel but I just don’t know which one would fit my printer. I’ve never bought new nozzels before and I know the ultimaker I use at work has a different nozzel size than my printer at home. The airbrushing tips are a little expensive and I don’t want to waste my money.

I worked on improving the part cooling, rapidly cooling that material as it was laid down and designed the duct to avoid cooling the heater block. I managed perfect quality 75 degree overhangs without sacrificing part strength. Still had to dial in the temperature though. One degree meant the difference between a decent part and a fantastic part.

@Jeff_DeMaagd wow, 1 degree?! Do you have to search for that perfect setting with each different filament manufacturer/plastic type?

I’m thinking through the best approach to the infrared camera idea to perfectly control cooling to eliminate warping
Brook

@Justin_Nesselrotte it’s just an idea but to test it, we would need an infrared camera that can talk to marlin to pause between each layer until the desired temperature is reached for cooling. Then it would proceed to print next layer. Testing a couple very challenging models may quickly show if it has promise… one model designed to warp badly and one with dramatic overhangs. Warpage is one of those problems that still ruins prints. Many users end up tweaking all kinds of things when the root cause is insufficient layer cooling.

Thoughts?
Brook